Many people will say that December 25 (or January 6, if you are Eastern Orthodox) is a made-up date for Jesus’ birthday. They will say that Christians chose the day, not because it was Jesus birthday, but because it was the same time as Saturnalia. The idea is that Christians picked the date either to replace the pagan feast day, or to be able to celebrate something on that day in order to evade persecution. So, when was Jesus really born?
In Luke’s gospel, there are some hints at the real date of Jesus’ birth. Luke is the gospel writer who is most detail oriented, and the most likely to tie events to secular history. For example, in Luke 2:1-3, we know that Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem as a result of a census. If we knew from Roman history when the census was, we would at least be able to place the date of Jesus’ birth within a season. Lacking this, however, we can begin to work backwards.
The people at that time believed that it took nine months (270 days) from conception to birth. This is not exactly right (at least these days), but it is fairly close.
Luke 1:26-38 records Gabriel’s message to Mary. There are two chronological clues here. One is that this event happened “in the sixth month” (v. 26). I have two commentaries (William Hendrickson and Matthew Henry) that say this is referring to the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, but it could also mean the sixth month of the year. The other clue is that Elizabeth is in her “sixth month” of pregnancy when Gabriel spoke to Mary. For this to work, we need to assume that Mary conceived very shortly after Gabriel appeared, it is sixth months from Elizabeth’s conception of John the Baptist to Mary’s conception of Jesus.
So we know that John the Baptist was conceived 15 months before Jesus was born.
If we continue backwards, we note that John the Baptist’s father was Zecharias, a priest of “the division of Abijah.” This means almost nothing to the modern reader, but for a reader in Luke’s time this meant a lot. There were many priests by this time, and they had to take turns ministering in the temple. If you knew which division a priest came from, you could figure out when he served at the Temple. It was believed that a priest ended his service in the Temple at the end of a Jewish calendar year.
There is another assumption at work here. The calculation assumes that Zecharias, shortly after his vision, went home, and that John the Baptist was conceived shortly thereafter. This is not a bad assumption.
So if we follow these dates, working backwards from December 25, we get:
Gabriel appears to Mary (March 25)
Angel appears to Zecharias (September 25 of previous year).
There is an ancient church document (”De Solstitiis”) which works with the assumption that Zecharias completed his term of service in the Temple on this date (which is also when the Jewish year changes over.)
Here are some notes from a lecture by Dr. Jack Kinneer (Origins of Christmas) that explain how and when Christmas originated, and how the dates were calculated. This focuses on how the date was derived using biblical data.
Here is another article (Calculating Christmas, by William J. Tighe) which looks at other ways that the date of Christmas was calculated.
In conclusion, the date of Christmas that we celebrate may not be right, but it was a good educated guess by teachers in the Ancient Church. It was not a date picked because of its association with a pagan holiday. (In fact, the reverse may be true.) To get this date, they used information from the Bible, plus knowledge of Jewish practices, plus some assumptions that were common at the time.
Merry Christmas, Everyone!!!
By “Ancient Church” are you referring to the Catholic church?
Sean,
At the time the dates of Christmas were being calculated (the 3rd and 4th century A.D.), the Church was pretty much united. There was the “Catholic” (meaning universal) church, and there were a few heretical movements that either died out or were re-absorbed later. There were also some geographically isolated churches, such as the church in India. There was not the distinction between Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant churches that we have now.
In different regions, the scholars came up with different dates, depending on whether they were using the Greek or Julian calendar, and how they synchronized that with the Hebrew calendar.
This is great information.
I know some folks who are convinced of the whole “pagan origins” thing – this will be very helpful.
Your theory sounds like a revisionist history to me.
“Now there are some who would like to rewrite history — revisionist historians is what I like to call them.”
President George W. Bush
Revisionist of what, Sean? We don’t have any close to the source information to support the “Jesus certainly wasn’t born in December and they just picked that to make the pagans happy” argument — that’s based on modern assumptions and guesses about people’s motives from two thousand years ago. Ray’s citing ancient historic sources from time periods very close to the actual events, as opposed to people who looked and things and said, “This looks like this, and this sounds like that, so this must have come from that” 16 or 17 centuries after these dates had been universally accepted among Christians. He’s also pointing out that in the natural (known) course of things, some events would have happened so many months after other things — and we have good reason, based on long-known information, to estimate when those “other things” generally occurred in the first century B.C.
“Historical revisionism (negationism)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Historical revisionism is the attempt to change commonly held ideas about the past. In its legitimate form (see historical revisionism) it is the reexamination of historical facts, with an eye towards updating historical narratives with newly discovered, more accurate, or less biased information, acknowledging that history of an event, as it has been traditionally told, may not be entirely accurate.”
I could conclude this citation of “ancient historic sources from time periods very close to the actual events” was with the benefit of scholarly knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin. But that conclusion would be wrong. Because he seems to be basing his conclusions on the works of other scholars….Hendrickson, Henry, Kinneer, Tigh.
He is actually engaging in speculation….
“There is another assumption at work here.”
How does he come of this knowledge….
“To get this date, they used information from the Bible, plus knowledge of Jewish practices, plus some assumptions that were common at the time.”
He is making the facts fit his conclusion.
Shepherds didn’t keep sheep in the field in December. A census wouldn’t have been conducted during the winter.
Sean,
Obviously I am not doing the original research. However, Jack Kinneer and William Tighe have done the research into the origin of the date of Christmas. I know Dr. Kinneer, and he is proficient in ancient church documents, and he know a few ancient languages. (A lot of the ancient Church documents have been translated now anyhow.)
The other two people I mentioned are Bible commentators. They both knew the ancient languages.
I’m not sure about your assertion that shepherds wouldn’t have kept sheep in the field in December. Israel has a Meditteranean climate, so their agriculture would follow different patterns than we would be used to. I also don’t have faith that the Roman government was “too smart” to call a census for December.
I have also just read an article that claims a September 29th date for Jesus’ birth. This also focuses on the Biblical information, plus the date of Zecharias finishing his service in the Temple, which the author claimed to know.
This calculation also has assumptions, such as an exactly 270 day gestation period, and that Zechariah went home to Elizabeth with no time delays for travel, she immediately welcomed him with open arms, and they begat John the Baptist with no time delay.
Again, I am not claiming that the date of December 25 (or January 6) is the right date. I am simply saying that according to ancient church documents, the 3rd-4th century church arrived at those dates by thinking, not by just picking the date to align with a pagan holiday.
[...] are a number of possible responses to this line of argumentation. This article is one of them, approaching the discussion in a rational, scholarly fashion. Good for [...]
I’m not sure that viewing the census as being conducted “in December” was the right way to look at it, anyway. In the ancient world, getting everyone to their hometown over the course of the whole Empire (heck, just getting the word out across the whole Empire) would have taken months. Who knows when the census decree was originated?
In addition to that, in a largely agricultural society, late autumn into winter would have been exactly the correct general time to call a census. Since the harvest would have been done and planting time was not yet on the horizon, Caesar could have ordered everybody off to wherever they needed to go without disrupting his tribute supply. I doubt the comfort and convenience of the provincials would have been his first priority.
None of this proves that Jesus was born in December, but as Ray said, I think it gives us room to consider another line of reasoning for the traditional dating than “they just wanted to have a holiday when the pagans did.”
Sean, I hold a degree in History. I’ve read Revisionist History in regards to a number of different historical claims, and to claim that Ray (and by inference, Dr. Tighe and others) is guilty of “Revisionist History” is baloney. Please also consider this, garnered from Gene Veith’s blog:
“William J. Tighe, a history professor at Muhlenberg College, gives a different account in his article “Calculating Christmas,” published in the December 2003 Touchstone Magazine. He points out that the ancient Roman religions had no winter solstice festival.
True, the Emperor Aurelian, in the five short years of his reign, tried to start one, “The Birth of the Unconquered Sun,” on Dec. 25, 274. This festival, marking the time of year when the length of daylight began to increase, was designed to breathe new life into a declining paganism. But Aurelian’s new festival was instituted after Christians had already been associating that day with the birth of Christ. According to Mr. Tighe, the Birth of the Unconquered Sun “was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians.” Christians were not imitating the pagans. The pagans were imitating the Christians.”
I have twelve years of Catholic school and a degree in anthropology. It’s not uncommon for one one religion to co-opt parts of other religions to make itself more palatable to a group of people. Look at Halloween for instance. The use of mistletoe or a Christmas tree. Many Christian shrines are directly on top of the shrines of other religions. Voodoo uses many Catholic practices.
Why is it so important for Christ to have been born on December 25th? There has been dispute over when to celebrate Easter. If your faith is strong does an arbitrary day on a calendar created by man really matter?
Wow, Sean…let me print this part of the article with spaces so it’s easier to take in:
“…the ancient Roman religions had no winter solstice festival.
True, the Emperor Aurelian, in the five short years of his reign, tried to start one, “The Birth of the Unconquered Sun,” on Dec. 25, 274.”
As the statement/article points out:
“Aurelian’s new festival was instituted after Christians had already been associating that day with the birth of Christ.”
Sean, it doesn’t matter if Christ was born on May 22 or Dec. 25. He was born, period. That is what is most important. That said, it IS interesting that there may ACTUALLY be a historical basis for celebrating on Dec. 25th – rather than having to put up with the politically correct gang saying “oh, they’re co-opting a pagan holiday (talk about revisionist history, Sean, there it is! To see what I mean, look at the parts quoted above).
(Strange – the blog took out the big spaces between words. Sorry about that, Sean. Hope the points still come across clearly).
KB
William Tighe is a history professor whose area of expertise is England during the time of the Tudors and Stuarts.
In that case, he would probably be aware that people in the time of the Tudors and Stuarts — a time in which things like Christian festivals were a matter of great contention — weren’t running around arguing that it’s categorically impossible that Christ was born in late December. It’s modern revisionism that is behind that argument.
Why wasn’t that article published in a historical journal subject to peer review instead of Touchstone magazine?
I’ve never claimed it was categorically impossible for Christ to have been born in late December.
What does it matter when He was born or when we celebrate His birth? God is omniscient and infinite.
It doesn’t, really. But a lot of people who think that celebrating Christmas in December is wrong think it does matter, in a negative way — the supposedly “wrong” date proves that those who celebrate Christmas in December are doing something pagan, as opposed to something Christian. I think making the case for the plausibility of December as a real birth date is important when you’re dealing with people who think that way. If you’ve never encountered such folks, more power to you, but most of the people commenting here have, either in real life or on the Internet.
OTOH, God is omniscient and omnipotent, but you have to be careful about using that to say that the details of what He’s done don’t matter. When we’re told things specifically or have the tools at our disposal to figure them out with accuracy, then I don’t think He wants us to play dumb. He does things in a particular way for a particular reason, not despite being omnipotent and omniscient, but precisely because He has the power to order even the details for His own glory.
But I’m not saying that you’re playing dumb. You just have to be careful about where you take ideas sometimes.
“Why wasn’t that article published in a historical journal subject to peer review instead of Touchstone magazine?”
Oh, and another thing — because the subject of the dating of Christmas isn’t something that academic historians generally trouble themselves with. It’s mostly popular religion writers who think they have a battle to wage here. It’s never really been an academically established viewpoint that “Christmas is just a copy of the pagans” — that’s more of a popular belief. So the historians don’t really have a dog in this fight — if it’s really even something properly called a “fight.”
Sean, here is a summary of my thoughts on this:
1) It doesn’t matter to me whether Christmas was on December 25 (or January 6) or any other date, but it is an interesting thing to think about.
2) There are a few people who care whether the date is accurate or not.
2a) Pagans care, because they think we made up the day, and perhaps they are still mad about it. (Though they mostly still like Christmas loot.)
2b) Some Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox care, but the ones who care are a tiny minority.
2c) Also, some “fundamentalists” in various denominations care, because they believe the pagans and they think that if Jesus wasn’t born on December 25, then it isn’t a legitimate Christian holiday, but rather a “forbidden mixture” of Christianity and paganism. In my Presbyterian denomination, there is a small but vocal minority that holds this viewpoint. This is a carryover from some branches of Puritanism which rejected all Christian holidays except for the weekly Sabbath.
3) If we did just plain steal the holiday from the pagans, that would be OK. After all, we put up with 300 years of persecution from the Romans, so the Roman pagans deserve to have their holidays hijacked, if that is what happened.
4) However, it looks like we didn’t steal the holiday. There are ancient documents supporting the idea that the Ancient Church calculated the date of Christmas based on what they knew at the time, and some things that they thought they knew. These documents are accessible even to people who are not professional historians.
5) If this is true, then there are several good results:
5a) The pagans can’t throw this silly charge at us anymore.
5b) The Catholics and Orthodox, if they understand the process that led to their different church calendars, might understand each other better.
5c) The “fundamentalist” objection to Christmas can be defused.
5d) We can get rid of a bit of historical snobbery. Instead of the idea that the Church Fathers just picked a date for convenience, we instead have ancient church leaders who thought their way through to a reasonable conclusion.
It is not terribly important that their conclusion was right or wrong. What matters is that they were thinking.
Shepherds didn’t keep sheep in the field in December. A census wouldn’t have been conducted during the winter.
——–Sean
I can assure you that shepherds kept sheep in each season, and every day in those seasons. This is a full time 24/7 occupation. Their tasks are itemized in Psalm 23.
The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want
He makes me lie down in green pastures.
That is to refresh and nourish the body of his flock.
he leads me beside quiet waters
That refreshes and nourishes all life.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
That type of guidance provides safety and well being.
for his name’s sake
Honor is given to God when His servants prosper (live)
Even tho I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death
I will fear no evil for YOU ARE WITH ME
Your rod and staff they comfort me.
The rod counts, guides, rescues, and protects.
These are instruments of authority.
The central verse is COMFORT and reassurance.
O glad tidings of comfort and joy!
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.
The table is a plateau of grass, the pasture. It needs cleared of rocks so sheep do not get hurt. Snakes must be removed. Holes filled in or legs broken. The preparation is the hardest part of the job.
You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
Honored guests at any banquet get anointed with oil.
In the case of sheep the oil is to keep bugs and insects away from their heads and nostrils so that infection does not occur. Each one personally!
Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
There are benefits to the sheep for having a covenant relationship to the shepherd. There are benefits to the believers who are in covenant relationship to the Shepherd.
“What does it matter when He was born or when we celebrate His birth? God is omniscient and infinite”
———Sean
You are good at recalling the Divine attributes. But there are also human attributes. The Father, Son and Spirit are One. They always were, are, and will be.
But a human attribute was added to God too.
He was born, suffered under Pilate, crucified, DIED, buried, and arose again. This human aspect means that the eternal God actually touched TIME for about 33 years. And TIME is finite. Because we want to know our Lord and Savior, we keenly pursue His Godship. We also examine and pursue his humanity. To that end, when He was born, lived, did ministry, where it was done, when he was crucified, and arose are critical to our understanding of His human nature. Amazingly, they not only line up with historical Roman records and Jewish law and tradition, they line up with all of prophesy as well.
The odds have been closely calculated that Christ was the only one in all history to meet all prophesy before his time.
I will take a silver dollar and mark it with a red dot. I will put that silver dollar in a bowl with thirty other silver dollars. You pick out the right one and bam, it is yours. Those are a known odds. Same with all prophesy; the odds are known for any one individual to meet them.
Take the same dollar and mark it with a red dot. now, stack the silver dollars in one foot high piles until you have the state of Texas covered a foot deep in silver dollars with exactly one dollar bearing your red mark. Find it. You now have the odds that Christ is the Savior that meets every prophesy for the Messiah.
Yes, Christ: Yesterday, today, and tomorrow is an infinite God.
Yes, Christ of 33 years on Earth to come to our place , to take our place, so that we can go to His place, touched TIME.
Who would NOT want to know precisely when that was?
(too tired to proofread; that’s all I have to say about that)
“Who would NOT want to know precisely when that was?”
Then maybe historians should concentrate on what year Christ was born because even that is disputed. Or maybe it’s just the recording of the years which are in dispute. While they are at it, they can determine which calendar is the best one to use too.
Isn’t a calendar just a way of establishing the position of the earth in relation to the sun and other celestial bodies? Isn’t that basically astrology?
“Also, some “fundamentalists” in various denominations care, because they believe the pagans and they think that if Jesus wasn’t born on December 25, then it isn’t a legitimate Christian holiday, but rather a “forbidden mixture” of Christianity and paganism. In my Presbyterian denomination, there is a small but vocal minority that holds this viewpoint. This is a carryover from some branches of Puritanism which rejected all Christian holidays except for the weekly Sabbath.”
So maybe the Fox news War on Christmas talking points aren’t right! Maybe these fundamentalist are deceptively using liberals to push their agenda of doing away with Christmas.
Sean,
Occasionally, I spill a glass of milk.
This post I read is more like dumping the contents of my fridge on the kitchen floor and mixing the mess up.
I get a sense of confusion in the post instead of a sense of resolution. Indeed, there is even false conclusion.
Let us avoid a line-by-line rip apart and repost and
“oops, what about this or that”, and view all of your concerns from a different perspective.
There was a time in the 20th century when NO ONE knew of the power of splitting the atom, or even what cyberspace was. Today we do. There was a time when the Lord concealed and a time when the Lord revealed.
I have read the Book of Matthew probably 50 times or more. When I read it, I am constantly amazed that a phrase will jump off the page and illuminate my mind for the very first time.
“How could I have missed that??”, I will ask myself.
I have read all of that many times and never saw it.
What has changed with each new reading is NOT a change in what was written. What has changed each time is a new revelation. The Lord opens the eyes of my heart, mind, and soul. It is done at a time of HIS choosing. It is done for HIS purposes. (You can be sure that He will send someone in my path that needs to hear what He has revealed; and, the Spirit having watched the Father ordain the steps of both parties to meet, will prompt a recall of the revelation….for its intended use by God). That is why it is the Living Word. That is why reading it is so critical. It is through reading the Word that revelation ensues.
The Word of God is sometimes referred to as the Sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6 off the top of my head, around verse 10-20ish). It is the primary Offensive weapon in God’s arsenal. Defensive weapons are a whole other story.
So back to your post, I can reply on my understanding, OR from the perspective of Christ and the Word that became flesh. Using those cues simplifies your queries.
When the Lord believes there is a critical need to know His birthday to the millisecond, HE will reveal it conclusively. Apparently, it is not a big deal to Him. Recall that the Dead Sea Scrolls were only found about 60 some years ago and give great insight and confirmation that parallels the Bible. I suspect there are many more “scrolls” out there and they will be revealed when He reveals em.
Calendar, astrology and all that….. you can pose your query and understanding, or, take it from His view.
HE claims to be in control.
Astrology claims that the stars guide our lives .
You choice; choose God or choose His created stars as a source over the created YOU.
Only ONE is in control.
As for fundamentalists, whether Christian, Jewish, or Islamic, or agnostic, or any other fundamentalist, the views shift as knowledge of the atom and cyberspace shifted in the last century. What is known as revealed by Him at His choosing, varies by person as well as place and time.
Your job is not to convince any of them.
Nor is your job to even understand em. You do not shake nytroglycerin to understand it. You do not convince all drivers on the road that the light is always “green” for you and they better stop, regardless of what they see.
What you do is find the true law and obey it. Whether you are driving, or planning an eternal life, the Truth protects your life; here, and forever.
[2 points here:]
1) note how lousy drivers are even though each had a handbook with the rules given to them.
2) Truth is sometimes difficult to understand unless you read His Word. Pilate looked Truth dead in the eye and asked “What is Truth?”. Um, He had already declared : “I AM the Way, the Light, the TRUTH….and Pilate just didn’t get it.
I recommend Matthew as a starter. You will find something new with each reading through that book.
In the end, HIS opinion is the only one that matters.
Happy NEW Year.
“Let us avoid a line-by-line rip apart and repost and
“oops, what about this or that”, and view all of your concerns from a different perspective”
Vs.
“I have read the Book of Matthew probably 50 times or more. When I read it, I am constantly amazed that a phrase will jump off the page and illuminate my mind for the very first time.
“How could I have missed that??”, I will ask myself”
So focusing on a particular line in a blog post = bad but doing it for the Book of Matthew = good. Got it…..I think.
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and me reading by just saying you agreed with me in the first place.
“When the Lord believes there is a critical need to know His birthday to the millisecond, HE will reveal it conclusively. Apparently, it is not a big deal to Him.”
plus BTG….
“1) It doesn’t matter to me whether Christmas was on December 25 (or January 6) or any other date, but it is an interesting thing to think about.”
plus me….
“What does it matter when He was born or when we celebrate His birth?”
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and me reading by just saying you agreed with me in the first place.
—–Sean
I don’t know if I agree with you for I have not even read you. I looked at a couple of posts and joined in the conversation. Nothing more; nothing less.
If I could change one thing, I would delete the word “Sean” at the start. What I wrote may be viewed by others (presuming this blog is read by others). So, I have no qualms writing what I wrote and letting it hang there for anyone who comes along in the future…..as I did yesterday.
Consider the word “Sean” removed and my post available to anyone.
“So focusing on a particular line in a blog post = bad but doing it for the Book of Matthew = good. Got it…..I think”
——Sean
Um, not even close.
I suspect that there is less clarity in what I wrote, than a need to disagree. I will pass. You win. Happy New Year still.
To the Blogger/Owner,
I mistook your blog for the MS Blog by fabrizio. I think the pictures on homepage are very close and will doublecheck.
Regardless, this site took me to Kyriosity and I thank you for that There is some decent writing on that link.
I will come back to archives at yours and hers another time, but enjoyed reading the few posts I saw so far.
Best regards,
Danny Lucas
Danny,
Kim Fabrizio and I use the same WordPress template, so we have the same default picture on top. One day I will get ambitious and put a new picture up there that fits more with the them of this blog. Unfortunately, I don’t spend much time on the “interior decoration” of my blog.
“I don’t know if I agree with you for I have not even read you. I looked at a couple of posts and joined in the conversation. Nothing more; nothing less.”
Yea, right. If you say so. But in post 20 you quote me twice. In post 22 you start your post off addressing me specifically. But you haven’t read my posts!
As always, BTG, thanks for the opportunity to dialog. Happy New Year. Happy Mary, Mother of God Day.
I have entered many blogsites and read what is going on, posted a thought based on what I saw, and exited.
On New Year’s Eve, I did the same here.
My first post here is Number 20.
Within that post, I note 2 quotes. They are the final paragraph of comment 6 and 16; both authored by Sean.
Those couple of paragraphs are in glaring error and prompted me to write here, in Number 20, indeed, they are the basis of the whole comment.
As I wrote 20, I had yet to even read all of 6 and 16….just the bottom lines of falsehood in both.
I call that a “couple” of posts, when in reality it is only a PART of a couple of posts. I know you less than proclaimed.
That’s all that exists for knowing views.
Anything after is dialog.
And using that dialog to call someone a liar about what they have read to date is counterintuitive at best.
So today, I read the original post and all comments…uh, 1/1/8 at 3pm-ish…tho your clock is about 5 hours in advance for time stamp. (This could become critical given the chopped views of Attorney Sean here….oops, I have read all comments so let me correct that…BA in Monkeys (as we called Anthro in school days of yore).
I conclude that there is far less dialog and an unhealthy nutrition of antagonist extraordinaire from beginning post number 1 to the end.
It appears that all comments are directed to correcting the flawed knowledge of Sean’s posts. And when it is done (even double spaced for clarity) it does not matter for new arrows are drawn from the endless quiver of doubt, sarcasm, and mistruth, and shot at random.
Tighe’s qualifications challenged.
Ancient church.
Revisionist history.
Shepherds.
Census.
Touchstone Magazine not a good publication place (LOL)
I never claimed it was categorically impossible…
Yea right, if you say so.
This is not dialog. This is energy suck.
And a moving target of energy suck that disagrees with all for the sake of antagonizing. There is not one iota of evidence; only APPEARANCE of evidence.
And a Degree in Monkeys and 12 years of Catholic catechism study does NOT add up to quibble level with even the mission statement at Touchstone Magazine:
Touchstone is a Christian journal, conservative in doctrine and eclectic in content, with editors and readers from each of the three great divisions of Christendom — Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox. The mission of the journal and its publisher, The Fellowship of St. James, is to provide a place where Christians of various backgrounds can speak with one another on the basis of shared belief in the fundamental doctrines of the faith as revealed in Holy Scripture and summarized in the ancient creeds of the Church.
I will make it a point to look at Touchstone in depth as it looks to be a place of inclusiveness and tolerance of believers.
The dismissal of Mr. Tighe was an act of gross negligence by Sean. This is one of those occasions where court rules apply.
“Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?”
Sean tells the truth of Tighe, but is negligent on the whole truth and nothing but the truth….so help me God (please!).
Tighe teaches at Muhlenberg. In Allentown, PA.
For Erie people, you are aware that Millcreek encompasses Erie all around and is basically one unit; it is hard to tell you left the location of either and entered the other.
This holds true for Allentown and…..Bethlehem, PA (also known as the Christmas City of America). I saw it celebrate Christmas as no other location in the world, for I lived in Bethlehem until last year.
Spiritual life is stressed in both communities as this is the birthplace locale of much of our USA history. (Hey, the Liberty Bell was hidden in a basement of a CHURCH on Hamilton Avenue…Allentown’s center street…to save the Bell when the Brits were playing havoc).
Here is Muhlenberg, a co-ed place for studies with a Christian lifestyle included for only $41,000+ a year — if you skip books and don’t eat:
Welcome to Muhlenberg College!Muhlenberg College is an independent, undergraduate, coeducational institution related to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/ – 24k – Cached – Similar pages
Mule Logo
Admission
Berg At A Glance
Directions How To Apply
Site Index
Campus Tour
More results from muhlenberg.edu »
I do not know if links light up at this site, but notice that little line about “related to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America”.
Sean did not point that out. He did not point out that Bethlehem archives ANYTHING about Christmas that is known and if you live in that area, and teach at Muhlenberg, you are more of an authority on Christmas than Touchstone or a Journal of Peers can hope to be.
There is a Star on South Mountain in Bethlehem. It is on every day of the year. Two Christmas trees are wrapped on each telephone pole on every corner of the street…in OCTOBER.
This town is nutz on Christmas….year round.
Musikfest in August every year incorporate accapella choirs in one area that invigorate spiritual life along with contemporary top stars for a three week period annually. Google it and go over in August (get tickets fast as they go immediately on release). The community breathes Christianity as a result of it’s original name….Bethlehem. Muhlenberg is right there with it.
I wish I had the time to go on about Christmas, Bethlehem, and more, but the glaring ommissions presented by the antagonistic Sean needed highlights first.
I do not know what BTG means either, so use English in communications please.
BTG is the blogger….Books Toys Games. Uh yea whatever you say. At least I knew which blog I was on.
Danny, now that you’ve figured out where you are, welcome from the other half of BTG.
BTG is a graduate of Lafayette, and my degree’s from Moravian. I grew up in the LV, so I know well whereof you speak. In fact, my brother graduated from Muhlenberg back in the 70’s. I would warn you, though, that the “Christian focus” at Muhlenberg wore thin quite a while back. However, that doesn’t mean that Tighe doesn’t know his stuff in that area.
Not to change the subject…or maybe to change it back to the original topic.
This from the Tighe article…
“So in the East we have April 6th, in the West, March 25th. At this point, we have to introduce a belief that seems to have been widespread in Judaism at the time of Christ, but which, as it is nowhere taught in the Bible, has completely fallen from the awareness of Christians. The idea is that of the “integral age” of the great Jewish prophets: the idea that the prophets of Israel died on the same dates as their birth or conception.
This notion is a key factor in understanding how some early Christians came to believe that December 25th is the date of Christ’s birth. The early Christians applied this idea to Jesus, so that March 25th and April 6th were not only the supposed dates of Christ’s death, but of his conception or birth as well.” End Tighe quote.
So the early Christians co-opted the belief of another earlier religion! To Christians, John the Baptist is considered a prophet. In the Roman Catholic Church his birth is celebrated on June 24th. His death August 29th. Somehow the early Christians didn’t apply this very important (according to Tighe) principal of integral age to John the Baptist. But what do I know I only have a BA in Monkeys.
If anyone wants me I will be reading my Chick tracts….
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp
I’d suggest not wasting your time that way, Sean.
Of course, pre-Christian Judaism isn’t another religion from Christianity — it’s the same religion with less information.
And how do you know they didn’t follow the integral age principle with John? “The Roman Catholic Church” is not the same thing as the early Christians, as has been pointed out before.
Then please explain how the integral age applies to John. You’re not implying a church would change the birth and death dates of such an important religious leader to suit their own ends.
Danny,
I would hardly say that Bethlehem breathes Christianity. Moravian College, though affiliated with the denomination, lost its Christian focus two or three generations ago, and the Christmas city is so only in a commercial sense. Musikfest is hardly a spiritual event either, although all types of music have been represented there.
Sean,
I am not sure that this idea was applied to John the Baptist when figuring out the date of his death. Remember, this was “an idea that was widespread in Judaism at the time of Christ.” That doesn’t mean it was terribly important at the time the date of his death was commemorated.
It is to be noted that John the Baptist’s birth is about six months ahead of Jesus’ birth, just as the Gospel of Luke says.
SheWhoPicksUpToys
Danny, now that you’ve figured out where you are, welcome from the other half of BTG.
BTG is a graduate of Lafayette, and my degree’s from Moravian.
Thank you kindly for the welcoming. Ditto to BGT.
I have commented often at Kim Fabrizio’s and was surprised how long you are established and I had missed this blog.
(The case of my finding my bearings was perhaps a tad overblown; I enjoy both sites). I expect to come up to spin fast after a chance at perusing your archives.
LaFayette was one of my customers and anyone who lived in Easton learned about bending over and picking up more than toys, given the annual flooding of the Delaware River (and LeHigh). The area is changing much like Erie with “so long” Bethlehem Steel and “howdy” Casino life.
I note your comment on “same religion with less information. Matthew 5:17 says it well: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”. — Jesus
I hear HE studied the Pentatuch pretty well too. Imagine that!
I hope to find discussion on unity here as fervent as discussion on the few posts I have read. I believe that the lack of unity is the chief stumbling block in Christian effectiveness today. Who would want to be adopted into a family where all the brothers and sisters quarrel all day and night?
One of my best friends in Bethlehem (mild Baptist) married a girl from Israel. His mom was Quaker (major pacifist) and hers, of course, Jewish. At their wedding, I presented her with a copy of “The Christian Book of Why” and he got a copy of
“The Jewish Book of Why”. That was 1995 and they are still hitched.
Online, I have viewed many sites and find 2 useful in attempting an understanding, so that unity may one day be achieved.
Try http://www.askMoses.com and you can chat live with a Rabbi
or read immense materials.
Locally in Erie, http://www.reasonforourhope.com is put out by Larry Richards at Bread of Life on 24th and Sassafrass, formerly St. Joseph’s (or maybe called both yet). The ministry reaches around the globe from downtown Erie. Links to the Vatican or a significant resource of Bibles is within (as well as prayer page). Perhaps one day I will expand on those sites and on unity as well.
Final thought, an apology to Sean for BA in Monkeys statement as it was unnecessary and uncalled for.
Best regards,
Danny Lucas
bookstoysgames
Danny,
I would hardly say that Bethlehem breathes Christianity.
We posted simultaneously here and I missed this. In all the years I was in Bethlehem, ending 2006, I attended nearly every Christian denomination in the area….I include the LeHigh Valley here, not just Bethlehem. Whether I travelled the road to nearby Emmaus or headed up to Nazareth, church life was abundant and integral.
While other communities debate legality of Nativity on public grounds, you can peer out of City Hall and look at the square where city employees put up a humongous Nativity.
I think each will find what they seek in Bethlehem.
Musikfest is a delightful commercial adventure. Not many communities employ gospel music and accapella choirs as a drawing card. You will find both at Musikfest, albeit a minority representation of the entire affair. I will reread my sentence to see if it was misleading above.
(Moment)
Nope, looks ok but this paragraph adds depth to it
I have travelled 48 of the 50 states, most of Canada and Europe, and rarely encountered the myriad number of churches/denominations as I saw and attended in Bethlehem. It was one of few times in my life when I could intentionally visit as many various churches as possible, so I did.
Moravian church hold true to its doctrine.
Moravian College is just like all of our colleges and universities these days; secular humanism and coed living have altered the landscape of our youth’s understanding of Truth.
Regarding the Christmas City is only so in a commercial sense, um, I wouldn’t know about that….I was at church.
Interesting blog.
Best regards,
Danny Lucas